Curse

Kerwyn Nasilan · Jul 24, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Better Idea, remove fame title and silly emote,

Next problem please...

Avarre · Jul 24, 2009, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistachio

You new comers? Survival of the fittest? Better players are more important than you? It is exactly ^this^ kind of attitude that is the problem - believing you have entitlement over anyone else because you think you're a better player. Any new comer to the game has every right to play with anyone else because he or she payed the price for an account. That's it.

They don't think they are better players. They are better players. This isn't some sort of prejudice, this is empirical fact from tactical and mechanical ability that results in them being able to win games where you could not.

You don't have the right to waste someone else's time with your 'I paid for the game' nonsense. Evidently the concept of competition is foreign to you entirely.

Still Number One · Jul 24, 2009, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistachio

Middle school basketballers and Michael Jordan? We are talking about a video game here, Pumpkin. This is hardly a fair comparison.

You new comers? Survival of the fittest? Better players are more important than you? It is exactly ^this^ kind of attitude that is the problem - believing you have entitlement over anyone else because you think you're a better player. Any new comer to the game has every right to play with anyone else because he or she payed the price for an account. That's it.

It is a fair comparison because basketball and Guild Wars PvP are competitive environments with different levels of competition. Basketball has a top level (professional) and Guild Wars has a top level (High End Competitive PvP). You don't immediately decide I want to play basketball and get to play with the Chicago Bulls. You have to work at it and play at many different levels below professional before you are able to make it. It is the same with Guild Wars PvP. You don't decide I want to play GvG and join rawr. You start at the bottom and you work your way up each tier.

As for the second part, that is the way competition is buddy. If you are new to the game you are a newcomer. I fail to see the problem with that.

It is survival of the fittest. The best players play on the best teams and the best teams win the most. The bad teams lose.

I already touched on the more important thing being a bad choice of words to get my point across. Read the thread before responding. The point still stands that better players get to play with other better players and newer players get to play with newer players.

Better players do have entitlement over worse players. you do not have the right to play with great teams just because you bought the game. You have the right to get better and improve your game so that you may increase your play ability and be able to hold your own on that level. You don't go to your local sporting goods store, buy hockey pads and play for the Red Wings. It doesn't work that way. If you don't like it then tough, I guess you won't be playing PvP.

Your attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. You are not entitled to anything. You must earn what you want. Instead of starting where everyone else started, you want some free pass to play with people who have proven themselves and played this game competitively for years. It doesn't work like that. And there is no reason a competitive environment should. competitive teams shouldn't have to gimp themselves because you're too lazy to take the months to years required to become good.

I don't feel sorry for anyone who complains about not being able to play with higher ranked players when they have done nothing to prove themselves. Stop whining on a forum about people not wanting to gimp themselves for your benefit. Start playing the game and get better.

Grj · Jul 24, 2009, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

Better Idea, remove fame title and silly emote,

Next problem please...

This is what it comes down to basically, with no emote it'll near kill all complaints like this thread,
no newbie will ever even attempt HA again because there's no need too.

Rocky Raccoon · Jul 24, 2009, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

My question is how do you really get any better if you don't get the chance to play with people higher ranked to know where you stand?

Why has no one answered my question?

Still Number One · Jul 24, 2009, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Why has no one answered my question?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

But if a player can only become a good player by learning and working with good players to develop the knowledge, tactics and lingo etc...

If that were the case then no one would be good. Everyone who is "good" played with people who weren't when they started off. After playing the game a lot, you learn what works and what doesn't and you get better.

Why does everyone think you can only get better if you have a great player holding your hand? The best way to learn is to get better on your own. You learn the best by figuring out your mistakes and how to fix them on your own. Everybody, myself included, started off playing with terrible players. I learned by messing up. I would try to figure out why I messed up, and then stop doing that so I wouldn't mess up as often. Eventually I got better and started playing at a higher level of play.

STOP THINKING YOU NEED TO PLAY WITH BETTER PLAYERS IN ORDER TO GET BETTER. You get better by playing. No matter who it is with. You have to make yourself better, no one else can do it for you.

He asks almost the exact same question and I answered his on page 3 I believe. Yours is a bit different because it basically asks how do you know when you are good enough. The answer really isn't that hard to figure out. If you are playing HA and you want to join rank 7+ groups, you are good enough when you reach rank 7. If you are playing GvG and want to join an mAT guild, you know by whether or not people will accept you into their guild based off your application you sent to them.

The best way to evaluate yourself isn't from playing with great players. It is from playing against them. If you feel like you did very well and held your own fairly well, then perhaps you are good enough. If you get stomped, well then you need more work. It really is up to you to truthfully evaluate yourself and improve your skill.

Rocky Raccoon · Jul 25, 2009, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

He asks almost the exact same question and I answered his on page 3 I believe. Yours is a bit different because it basically asks how do you know when you are good enough. The answer really isn't that hard to figure out. If you are playing HA and you want to join rank 7+ groups, you are good enough when you reach rank 7. If you are playing GvG and want to join an mAT guild, you know by whether or not people will accept you into their guild based off your application you sent to them.

The best way to evaluate yourself isn't from playing with great players. It is from playing against them. If you feel like you did very well and held your own fairly well, then perhaps you are good enough. If you get stomped, well then you need more work. It really is up to you to truthfully evaluate yourself and improve your skill.

Thank you, I guess I was combining against and with together and trying to figure out how that works.

Pistachio · Jul 25, 2009, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

You don't have the right to waste someone else's time with your 'I paid for the game' nonsense. Evidently the concept of competition is foreign to you entirely.

Well, it's obvious that you're just trying to bait me, or you really didn't take the time to read what I wrote. Either way, I'll make it a little more clear for you, Honey.

Here is my issue. If you are a) new to Guild Wars, or b) new to PvP, and in this case specifically Heroes Ascent, you are at a severe disadvantage beyond simply being an inexperienced player. As a result of the ranking system, the player base has taken it upon themselves to segregate teams according to rank. It is a flaw in the game, and it is something that should be addressed by the developers. This has made it nearly impossible for someone without rank to get into a team, and a game that will teach them anything, or earn them rank to play with better teams. You need rank to get into an "experienced" team, and you need an experienced team to get rank. It's a vicious cycle, and requires unranked players to jump through hoops to get anything more than good fortune on the battlefield. Specifically joining a PvP guild. But wait, now there's PvP guilds with rank requirements, and so on. So how does a new player go about starting a successful journey into HA with the current state of the game? I see no reasonable avenues.

My problem isn't with rank requirements. It's fine if a guild, or a team wants to exclude other players based on a title. That's their prerogative. My problem is it leaves no alternative for anyone new to the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

...The point still stands that better players get to play with other better players and newer players get to play with newer players.

That's the way it should be, but it's not. Highly ranked players play with other highly ranked players, and new players simply get turned off to HA because there is no place for them there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Your attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. You are not entitled to anything.

This is intensely elitist, and completely counter to building a competitive community - only an exclusive one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

You must earn what you want. Instead of starting where everyone else started, you want some free pass to play with people who have proven themselves and played this game competitively for years. It doesn't work like that. And there is no reason a competitive environment should. competitive teams shouldn't have to gimp themselves because you're too lazy to take the months to years required to become good.

It's not a free pass I think new players should have, it's a play environment that is accommodating to both fresh and seasoned players. As of now, it is not.

And your sports analogy? I fail to see how working towards a professional sports career is in any way comparable to playing a video game. And if you do see it that way? Well. Good luck with that.

Burst Cancel · Jul 25, 2009, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistachio

HA inherently has no system to discriminate based on rank, time played, matches played, etc, etc. So, when the player population creates their own filter where it is impossible to get a team without rank. That is too much elitism.

You seem to be suggesting that, since HA doesn't force people to play with those of the same rank, that players should not be allowed to choose to play with those of the same rank. If so, please explain why this should be the case - why shouldn't high-rank players be allowed to make high-rank groups?

Furthermore, you can get teams without rank. There is nothing that prevents you from grabbing seven friends, guildies, or other no-rank randoms for HA. In fact, why don't all of the low-rank people complaining on Gurus about elitism just form their own groups?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistachio

It's telling that you don't understand the issue. It's not that I care elitism exists, it's only natural - I care that it's gotten to the point where it overruns HA, and there is now no middle ground. For someone without rank, it's either cannon fodder or nothing. How is that system not broken? Also, you should look up the definition of Irony.

Players are beaten by those who are better than them. Naturally, if most of the other players are better than you, you will lose the majority of the time. That's what being a beginner is all about - particularly when you're a beginner in a mature community that has many veteran players. Thus, it is inherent in any competitive activity that beginners will have two choices: being cannon fodder, or not playing. This is not unique to GW, and there is nothing broken about it.

Consider arcade games. Strong players can routinely dominate at a machine for hours at a time - not only kicking the losers off the machine (and to the end of the line, if there is one), but also forcing the losers to pay money for a rematch. What happens to beginner teams in GW is no different; in fact, GW beginners get off easy: you can go right back in, and you don't even need to stop at the change machine for quarters.

The game is obligated to give you a chance to play. It is not obligated to give you a chance to win.

Still Number One · Jul 25, 2009, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistachio

That's the way it should be, but it's not. Highly ranked players play with other highly ranked players, and new players simply get turned off to HA because there is no place for them there.

No, new players get turned off because they don't want to suffer through losing and spending a few months to a year improving their skills before they see any results. If you aren't dedicated enough to do that, then you don't belong in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistachio

This is intensely elitist, and completely counter to building a competitive community - only an exclusive one.

It isn't elitist, it is being realistic. I'll say it again, YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO ANYTHING. It is a fact with competitive environments. You have to go out and earn everything you had. I had to do it when I first started, and so did everyone else I have ever played with. Everyone starts out as nothing. It is your responsibility to turn nothing into something. It isn't mine or anybody elses responsibility to give you something. You must go out and earn it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistachio

It's not a free pass I think new players should have, it's a play environment that is accommodating to both fresh and seasoned players. As of now, it is not.

Sure it is. There is absolutely nothing stopping 8 new players from making a guild and playing guild wars except their own attitudes. It isn't like you have to be at a certain level before you are allowed to make friends and play the game. The field is open for everyone. People need to accept the level they are at and start playing at it. Instead they are coming onto forums and demanding a free pass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistachio

And your sports analogy? I fail to see how working towards a professional sports career is in any way comparable to playing a video game. And if you do see it that way? Well. Good luck with that.

You are looking at it wrong. you have to throw away the fact that the professional sports pay players and they use it as a means to make a living and look at it from a purely competitive standpoint. I use professional sports because they are the most known competitive environment. They both are games, and the both are means of competition, both have different levels of play for all sorts of different players, and both require work and dedication in order to play at their highest level. In Guild Wars and in sports, the players spend a long time honing their skills to be the best they can possibly be. The only difference is that professional sports adds an extra incentive to be good that video games don't (money). But money really doesn't change the fact that they are still competitive games so it doesn't play a role in this argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

The game is obligated to give you a chance to play. It is not obligated to give you a chance to win.

This

YunSooJin · Jul 25, 2009, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Furthermore, you can get teams without rank. There is nothing that prevents you from grabbing seven friends, guildies, or other no-rank randoms for HA. In fact, why don't all of the low-rank people complaining on Gurus about elitism just form their own groups?

What would happen (and I'm sure Pistachio knows) is that they would all rage quit as they got their faces pounded into the dust over and over. What I don't understand is if you think so little of your own personal ability that you want to get into high ranked groups without any effort, why you would think its fair or even acceptable for you to complain that it's unfair high ranked players don't want to play with you.

They don't want to play you because you have not shown that you have any ability to play your role effectively and win games. High ranked groups are high ranked because they are a group of people who have done all the steps beforehand needed in order to get their ranking. Even an idiot who does hundreds of hours of HA will eventually get an inkling of their role. Those who drag their teams down will be relegated to where they belong - kicked out of the group.

Star Mesmerized · Jul 25, 2009, 08:36 AM // 08:36

lol second post on Guru /cheer

I'm only an R2.. and i'm agreeing with the so called "elitist" people here.

I started HA on a double weekend farming fame with RtL spike. I spent the entire day in a PUG lead by the same person and found him/her really friendly. Then, the moment he got his/her R3 he kicked everyone who wasn't R3 out of the team and started spamming "GLF RtL R3+". That put me off HA for a long time so i spent most of my days in AB, JQ, FA and RA (I never liked TA because there is so little variety... it's balanced or a gimmick). Now i'm a G3 and decided to give HA one more shot.

I've earned the right to be accepted by some teams because i've proven my skill with G3. Sure i have very little HA experience but R3-5 teams and even an R9 team once accepted me. I like to think that's because they understand the situation at HA as it is and recognise i have put work in to get what i want.

I started advertising on guru for HA guilds (thus my first post on guru

). I am dedicated to achieving my goal and am not willing to let rank discrimination get in the way of that. Similarly, the "elitists" are dedicated to their goals and are not going to let unexperienced R0 newbies, let's face it that's what we are, get in the way of that.

Now i'm in a HA guild which is exclusively R3+. They say G+2=R, making me a R5 by their terms lol. Anyway, the point is i'm learning very quickly and am well on my way to an R3 now.

Thus i have to agree with the "elitists" here. You should stop moaning on a forum and start earning your place in the high end PvP world

Sarevok Thordin · Jul 25, 2009, 08:43 AM // 08:43

There really is no point in going on about this topic again, the "established" HA community have the doors bolted and locked on helping newer players into it, it's going to wither and die, let them fester in it.

Again there is no point to arguing, because they won't get the point. I mean it's not like footballers don't get coached...

refer · Jul 25, 2009, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Maybe they should just cap fame to so much per a day lol.

Short · Jul 25, 2009, 11:11 AM // 11:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by refer

Maybe they should just cap fame to so much per a day lol.

Erm no. That is ANet type thinking. It's like nerfing FGJ! when it's the sin that is the problem. And nerfing the cripple duration on PS when the recharge is the problem. If anything, that makes it harder for new players, they can't earn decent amounts of fame to get to the already high ranked players.

Arghore · Jul 25, 2009, 12:49 PM // 12:49

A few weeks ago i posted a suggestion for a baltazar title track, to addres the same problem. The main problem here is:

You need to PLAY to get experience, and if you dont get to play (ak if you dont have rank) you cant build up rank (/experience)..

* Over the past 4y i have payed a visit to HA every now and then, to see if i could get on a team. After waiting for 1 or 2h i then went back to RA because there, i atleast get to play...

!! I can fully understand higher experienced people want to play with equally experienced people, because you have higher chance to actually win. As a non ranked player i would prefer to be picked up by a high rank team, mainly because then i stand a chance to actually win so i can build up rank (same thing and logic reasoning)!!

After seeing reactions to my 'baltazar title track' and this thread i think the problem lies in the absence of Rank gained from RA and TA. As the logical way to the HA would be:

1. You fight in RA to gain basic experience of PvP and a general idear of skills you will be facing.
2. After getting tired of being on random teams, you will want to move on to TA where you learn how real teamplay works, iow how the skills work with other skills to form a teambuild instead of just a player build.
3. Then when you get experience with the team mechanics. You get to move on to a bigger team 8v8 in the HA.

Currently RA and TA lack titles to emphasise the experience gained!
- Sure there is the zaishen title, but if you can also get these by farming zaishen missions, this title then does not emphasise a Player v Player experience, as bots dont behave like human players;
- and if like me you find out about these keys after 'waisting' baltazar by not spending it, because you unlocked all PvP skills you want, there is nothing to show for your experience)
- thus chances are huge getting on a team will take ages, if you get on a team at all, and you go back to RA because there you can atleast play a few rounds, instead getting bored beyond believe and frustrated by all the 'leet' players 'whining' about rank :P

So this should be how it should/would work:
1. With a rank for RA, you will be choosen on a TA team given there are no TA ranked players available. If you have no RA rank, TA players can say, 'Hey noob, go fight in RA to build up some rank before comming here to try and waste our time'.
2. Then after you build up TA rank, you will be choosen on a HA team given there are no HA ranked players available. HA ranked players can point non ranked players to RA or TA.
3. Perhaps a stats window with the 3tracks would be nice too, as i would prefer to take a high rank RA and high rank TA, with Low HA rank; over someone with a low RA, low TA and low HA rank. mainly because of experience..

!!Then it would also be nice if the game engine would then place similar ranked teams against eachother and have winning teams then fight against higher ranked teams in a ladder structure.!!

This should give every player a PvP experience of their experience level, fill all arena's (mainly TA arena is empty, unless there is zaishen to be made) ... and make it easier for players with no HA experience to get on a team, as they can show they have experience from RA and TA...

People that are high ranked can still pick high ranked players, but if non available have a basis to pick non HA experience players on their other titles. And they can help totally unexperienced pvp'ers by pointing them to the RA, to start of their way in the GW-PvP system..

This to me atleast sounds like the only logically sollution (appart from removing the whole title thing from PvP). Or just call me silly

# Then ofcourse there is the last step (and/or ways around this), you get enough rank to be asked to join a PvP guild and you work the GvG ladded instead of HA.. or you find a PvP guild in one of the other Arena types. Or you find a guild in PvE that happens to also play TA or HA or even GvG. #
(If though you find a PvE guild with nice people to play PvE with, and you become friends, would you then leave them because you want to PvP, i would prefer not have to do this. If i can build up rank based on above system, i would not have to do this... and chances are you will find a PvE guild b4 you find a PvP guild, mainly because if you are new to the game, you will want to PvE first, if only to get the skills to PvP with)

** As for emotes to encompass the ranks; seeing alot of people dislike the spamming of these emotes, these should be limited to 2 for RA (say r3 and r6 rank), 2 for TA (say r3 and r6), and perhaps 3 for HA (say r3, r6 and r9/12; perhaps even 2 for HA is enough, because if you RA/TA/HA beyond r6 i would believe you PvP to PvP and not to get some emote

altho it could be an incentive ..

Pistachio · Jul 25, 2009, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

You seem to be suggesting that, since HA doesn't force people to play with those of the same rank, that players should not be allowed to choose to play with those of the same rank. If so, please explain why this should be the case - why shouldn't high-rank players be allowed to make high-rank groups?

Burst, Take the time to read the thread before you respond. I'll just quote myself on this one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistachio

My problem isn't with rank requirements. It's fine if a guild, or a team wants to exclude other players based on a title. That's their prerogative. My problem is it leaves no alternative for anyone new to the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

The game is obligated to give you a chance to play. It is not obligated to give you a chance to win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

It isn't elitist, it is being realistic. I'll say it again, YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO ANYTHING. It is a fact with competitive environments. You have to go out and earn everything you had. I had to do it when I first started, and so did everyone else I have ever played with. Everyone starts out as nothing. It is your responsibility to turn nothing into something. It isn't mine or anybody elses responsibility to give you something. You must go out and earn it.

Of course the game isn't obligated to let you win, but if you think any new player to PvP can just jump into HA, you're kidding yourself.

It's obvious you're both only hearing what you want to hear. Not once, have I said new players are entitled to anything more than being able to play HA without having to jump through some ridiculous hoops. You seem to have a lot of trouble understanding this. I'm not asking for hand outs, I'm asking that the game be able to accommodate players that are new to HA, which it absolutely does not do. It's a fault in the system, not the players.

Case in point -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star Mesmerized

I started HA on a double weekend farming fame with RtL spike. I spent the entire day in a PUG lead by the same person and found him/her really friendly. Then, the moment he got his/her R3 he kicked everyone who wasn't R3 out of the team and started spamming "GLF RtL R3+". That put me off HA for a long time so i spent most of my days in AB, JQ, FA and RA (I never liked TA because there is so little variety... it's balanced or a gimmick). Now i'm a G3 and decided to give HA one more shot.

I've earned the right to be accepted by some teams because i've proven my skill with G3. Sure i have very little HA experience but R3-5 teams and even an R9 team once accepted me. I like to think that's because they understand the situation at HA as it is and recognise i have put work in to get what i want.

How is this story not absurd? If you want to play HA, you should just be able to play HA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

...What I don't understand is if you think so little of your own personal ability that you want to get into high ranked groups without any effort, why you would think its fair or even acceptable for you to complain that it's unfair high ranked players don't want to play with you.

What I don't understand is why you think I even want to get into high ranked groups, or why you think I think new players should. Like Burst, you should read the thread before you respond. This isn't about getting some VIP pass to accrue free fame, it's about making a part of the game that is "open" to everyone, actually open to everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin

There really is no point in going on about this topic again, the "established" HA community have the doors bolted and locked on helping newer players into it, it's going to wither and die, let them fester in it.

Yes, there is no point in going on with this topic.

Burst Cancel · Jul 25, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

The problem is, all I'm seeing from you is a lot of handwaving, most of it self-contradictory.

From your posts, it isn't even clear exactly what you think the problem is, or what the solution should be. You state that you don't think there's a problem with high-ranked players making high-ranked groups ("it's their perogative"). You further state that you don't necessarily want to get into high-ranked groups, and you're not looking for a VIP pass. But then you state that all of this is a problem, because the game isn't open for everyone.

So which is it? Is it a problem or not? You say things like "accommodating players that are new to HA" and "open to everyone". How do you propose HA accommodate new players? The only suggestion I've seen so far is to make high-ranked players take low-ranked players in their groups - yet you've explicitly stated that you don't necessarily think they should.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistachio

If you want to play HA, you should just be able to play HA.

You can. What prevents you from playing HA? What prevents you from forming a team of friends, guild/alliance members, and low-ranked randoms and just going in? This is the question you need to answer, because it will reveal where your problem really is.

DigitalFear · Jul 25, 2009, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

What prevents you from playing HA? What prevents you from forming a team of friends, guild/alliance members, and low-ranked randoms and just going in?

9 out of 10 times you will lose and everyone /ragequits. that's possibly over 1 hour of looking for a team gone. what do you prefer?
wasting 1 hour in HA or actually playing PvP in RA?

this is HA for me, after 2 weeks i've gained... 30 fame.
that means if i want bambi i have to spend another 10 weeks, just to get into a team within an hour or so.
this will probarbly make me a whiner and stuff, just because i don't want to waste my time doing underworld and dying over and over again,
just to actually be able to 'begin' with HA.
this actually made me quit PvP altogether. i just don't want to waste my time anymore. (imo it's a waste)

Burst Cancel · Jul 25, 2009, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by DigitalFear

9 out of 10 times you will lose and everyone /ragequits. that's possibly over 1 hour of looking for a team gone.

How is this the fault of anyone but your team? More importantly, how can you seriously expect to win a significant number of matches as a beginner in a community full of veterans? Quitting because you "don't win enough" is an entitlement mentality that has no place in any competitive activity; it is not a legitimate complaint about rank discrimination because it has nothing to do with rank discrimination.

Losing 9 times out of 10 is not in any way, shape, or form equivalent to not being able to play HA. Again: the game is obligated to give you a chance to play. It is not obligated to give you a chance to win.